Talk:Leonard Cheshire

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Untitled[edit]

The Leonard Chehsire Foundation has a major impact from the UK Disability Discrimination Act - according to the Leonard Cheshire Disabled Peoples Forum, people with disabilities do not want Charity -will Leonard Cheshire Foundation survive? Or will it's 3 Public Liability Companies absorb the foundation? (Companies House) Have they already done this!

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It appears that Cheshire also started The Memorial Fund For Disaster Relief around 1989. Roger Water's "The Wall Live in Berlin" (1990) was to benifit the fund. Some badges and Parker pens were also sold, made from scraps of nuclear missiles. It looks like the fund was merged or discontinued. Any details on this? Gadget850 09:08, 19 September 2005 (UTC) Who is "Roger Water"?

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Regarding the P-51 Mustang epsiode, I'm sure this is Willie Tait, the CO to succeed Cheshire at 617. (Ref Paul Brickhill, Dambusters). Any confirmation from second sources either way? EwanSpence

It was Chesire who first used a P-51, althought Tait continued the practice, see " Beyond the Dams to the Tirpitz" by Alan W Cooper, page 85. Thanks Harryurz 16:19, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

I believe EwanSpence is refering to the statement about the P51 flying slow figure of eights and attempting to be used as a target for the bombs to aim on. I have no second sources unfortunately to confirm either way. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.104.164.89 (talk) 15:13, 12 July 2010 (UTC)

Which B-29?[edit]

The British observers Cheshire & Penney were on Big Stink not The Great Artiste according to “Cheshire” the biography by Richard Morris (2000). Hopkins was meant to link up with the others at Yakushima, but he kept at 39,000 feet instead of the agreed height (30,000 feet?). He tried to justify this by the need to keep the VIP passengers out of danger. Cheshire thought Hopkins (in charge of Big Stink) was “overwrought” according to Morris. The appointment of Hopkins was “strange”; as the operations officer he had no regular crew. Cheshire was with Penney, and in Hopkins’ plane so I have amended this page accordingly (at present it says The Great Artiste). Hugo999 06:59, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

Virtuti Militari?[edit]

According to polish sites [1] and [2] he was awarded Virtuti Militari, can someone check it in his biography? I couldn't find any good sources online.Plushy (talk) 19:15, 12 December 2009 (UTC)

Marriage to Constance Binney - End?[edit]

It would be helpful for someone to ascertain when Cheshire's first marriage (which he left out of his entry in Who's Who) legally ended, as it appears from the narrative in this article that it was still in existence throughout his relationship with Joan Botting, up to seven years on from the wedding day. It must have been dissolved by the time he married Sue Ryder.Cloptonson (talk) 19:52, 13 June 2013 (UTC) Found answer to own question, in his Oxford Dictionary of National Biography article - their divorce was ratified in January 1951.Cloptonson (talk) 17:32, 19 June 2013 (UTC)

Is Merle Elizabeth Botting really Cheshire's daughter?[edit]

I question the veracity of the suggested relationship between Joan Botting and Cheshire, and the resulting child Merle Elizabeth Botting born January 1946 as added to this article by "Gerald Ryder".

Cheshire did not set up the VIP community at Gumley until 3 June 1946, when Merle Elizabeth would have been nearly 5 months old (p. 237 Richard Morris "Cheshire" - there is no mention of Joan or Merle in this very comprehensive biography published 2000).

I have checked the references given by Gerald Ryder throughout the article to Andrew Boyle's biography "No Passing Glory" and Cheshire's book "The Face of Victory" and none of them mention Joan Botting, a relationship extra to his marriage to Constance Binney or a child.

The reference to p.69 of "The Face of Victory" stating that Joan ran the nursery at Le Court does not give any evidence that this was Joan - only that a woman who was a teacher was given the job of running the nursery.

The anecdote given by Cheshire on his first stirrings of religion at the Vanity fair in 1945 [1] refers to neither Claire Gilbertson nor Joan Botting, just "a woman", so again, not sufficient evidence for a relationship with either of these two woman at the time.

Interestingly this conversation is also in Cheshire's own book "The Face of Victory" where he dates the conversation to early July 1945 when his brother was repatriated from Poland [2] a mere 6 months before Merle Elizabeth Botting's birth (a very rapid gestation period indeed!)

Gerald Ryder goes on to say that the affair with Joan Botting commenced on VE Day 8th May 1945. Cheshire says he was in Washington when VE Day was announced, as it gave thoughts to him and his wife about how they should spend their future together [3].

Cheshire was posted at the RAF delegation in Washington from 22nd December 1944 - 14th September 1945. It would have been very difficult for him to impregnate Joan Botting around April/May 1945 (presuming her pregnancy took 8 months) as he was not even in the country, and was in fact living with and looking after his wife in Washington. [4].

It seems unlikely that Merle Botting is Leonard Cheshire's daughter, seeing as there is no evidence for Cheshire and Botting being in the same country at the time of her conception, or living together at the time of her birth.

It is possible that the Bottings were living as part of the the VIP community at Gumley and Le Court, as VIP was an exercise in collective communal living for ex servicemen and women and their families. Gerald Ryder's story of these events are very interesting in themselves.

HighHill1 (talk) 15:31, 5 August 2014 (UTC)

  1. ^ Andrew Boyle "No Passing Glory"p. 274-275
  2. ^ Richard Morris "Cheshire" & p. 47 Leonard Cheshire "The Face of Victory"
  3. ^ Leonard Cheshire The Face of Victory p. 46
  4. ^ Leonard Cheshire The Face of Victory p. 46

A useful way into this question would be to look at Merle Elizabeth Botting's birth certificate, where her mother will have to fill in a name for the child and her own maiden surname (which was Turner), as well as the date of birth, along with the name and occupation of child's father. She may have taken the option of leaving the father's name blank, but that in itself would be information. (Or someone other than the mother may have signed the certificate: that could be REALLY INTERESTING.) The route is to go to www.freebmd.org.uk and search for her birth by surname and maiden surname of mother. This will also give you the year and year quarter for the birth, along with the registration district and the volume and page numbers in the master register. You then have to enter these details on the General Registrar's Office website https://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/contact_us.asp and of course pay them a fee. Costs about £20 now I think. Obviously this says nothing about genetic paternity (did it ever?!), but it could be a little lode of social information.(Foiled circuitous wanderer (talk) 14:11, 10 April 2019 (UTC))

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Promotion to Wing Commander[edit]

On leaving the command of Marston Moor and taking over command of 617, you state he was promoted to war substantive wing commander. I've always been under the impression that he took a drop in rank to wing commander from group captain to take command of 617, and the text of the article would seem to bear this out. Also in his biography, Cheshire V.C. [1] he states that he did in fact take a demotion to become commander of 617.

Patrickblue (talk) 13:53, 23 July 2017 (UTC)

I have removed it, as it contradicts the book I have over the squadron. Beside that, the given source does not mention Cheshire at all. The Banner talk 16:20, 23 July 2017 (UTC)

References

  1. ^ ISBN 10: 0237446308

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Move discussion in progress[edit]

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